Hey willie, i asked you what about clocking sweeping parts. I wanna know if that 33 nps sweeping runs by Fareri are true. (every time i pay attemption to that section i can't hear nothing really clear or clean).
I`m personally not really interested in clocking sweeping, i mean, someone could pick up a guitar, bar all 6 strings, and `sweep` up and down that and call it a sweep. Of course, there`s a huge difference between that, and sweeping actual patterns as fast and clean as someone like Jason Becker, but to me there are just too many things to consider when starting to clock sweeping. For one thing, pretty good sweeping technique is something that can be aquired in such a short amount of time, at least compared to fast, accurate, alternate picking, so in my opinion it is nowhere near as unique as fast, accurate, alternate picking.
As for Francesco Fareri, i tried and tried to clock lots of his clips, but after many hours of trying i only managed to find 1 second that was remotely clear enough to be able to actually count the notes, and that was just because for that moment he was picking on 1 string, with no string changing involved. He seems a nice guy though.
Post by danielarlington on Feb 5, 2006 15:47:10 GMT -6
hey willjay great work dude..... I'v not really downloaded the huge file though caz i cant caz of my 56 k connection which is dying out.. hehehehe ..... anyway.. so dnt know the results...... good ur effort is appreciated......!!!!
Post by danielarlington on Feb 5, 2006 15:52:32 GMT -6
hey and i dnt even know if u considered my trem picking video that i had sent u ...??!! hehehe ... well after u said that I might b using delay to produced that sound i felt insulted and disgusted.. caz after so much practice someone comes up and says "ah ... its jst sounding like that caz he's using delay" boy .... i actually stopped posting much on forums... hehehehehe .... its not worth it... infact i can even practice more... hehehe ..
I think i`ve done my bit with this now, i just really wanted to try and put a stop to people all round the net making silly guesses or `claims` all the time about how fast they thought guitarists were playing, even when they were waaay out!
I mean, seriously, when i started `hanging out` on guitar forums about a year and a half ago there were soooooo many ridiculous speed threads and speed claims that (to me) were so false and far fetched, even though people were making these claims as fact. I set out to show people that if they are interested to know how fast guitarists are playing, or who is the fastest etc. then there is a science and an art to it, and no need for all the guesswork anymore!
In general i feel like that has changed quite a lot in the last year or so, i`d like to think i`ve helped that change come about.
Willie Jordan.
And you've establish the true field of study in that aspect . You have, over the past year or so, make that art form clearer (alt. picking), more realistic, more perfect.
Thank you. We appreciate that.
C'mon! You deserve it. ......... And we definitely need some consultant, scientist ;D to answer some of our questions...
Mods do consider a "sticky" thread for Willjay.....
I was more surprised to see that Yngwie and Mike max out at the same speed, a killer 16. Which is pretty interesting when you really think about it, since Yngwie himself said mike was faster.
Actually, it`s not as straight forward as that. Like i said, one of the main things i learned from doing this is that you could get a load of guitarists that can all pick the `same amount` of notes in a second, but that alone doesn`t automatically put them all on the same level of accuracy/articulation etc.
Yngwie can reach quite a bit of speed picking 3 notes per string, maybe the same as Mike, but IMO Mike`s picking is slightly more advanced because he seems to be able to pick more shapes/patterns at high speed than Yngwie, i`m not talking about musicality or taste here (personally i like `em both ;D) just picking ability.
For example, when picking that lick everyone does where you pick 3 notes on the lower string, then 1 note on the next (higher) string, then back to those 3 frets on the lower string, that IMO is a bigger test of picking ability than just doing 3 notes on both strings, because you only cross over to pick 1 note , then you have to `cross over` again, so you don`t really get time to `get comfortable` picking notes on that high string. When Yngwie picks that lick (as he did in one of my 1 second examples, clip 10) he maxes out at about 15 nps, even then his picking hand seemed to have trouble keeping up with the crossovers at that speed. Mike manages to alt pick that same shape lick, but instead string skipping over 4 strings to pick that 1 note, with more accuracy, at 16 nps.
So like i said, when you`re talking about skill level with fast alternate picking, there`s more to it than just how many notes are being played in a second, but you guys will be able to hear that from listening to those slowed down clips. Personally i take a few things into consideration when trying to judge the actual picking skill involved. There`s how fast? How accurate/articulate? And how difficult the actualy lick/shape/pattern being played is? Then something more difficult and rare than those is when some people even manage to phrase notes at that speed. For example, i know that John McLaughlin and Paul Gilbert often put accents on certain notes even during high speed runs, or switch between picking light, to picking heavier during a fast run.
Willie J.
One of your many GREAT posts!!
Amazingly, but strangely, I've myself created a alternate picking exercise for myself with that "Yellow" in mind, a few months back. And it helped me!!
And that Alex Masi story........... Shawn Lane is not human ......... I'm again is Inspired by him!
Post by Angel Martin on Feb 6, 2006 1:20:39 GMT -6
Lacrimosa, are you using the spasmic method for those clips? I can do it and its kind of a joke cause if you look at my second clip, I multi pick a ***load cause my fretting hand hasn't caught up to that speed and I don't think it will. Unless I can do it with my wrist it really isnt real to me. I can actually go to different strings while doing it. Also, the timing could probably be uneven if you really calculate that type of thing. I'll leave this to willjay.
Out of curiosity, what would my spasmic trem clock?
Lacrimosa, are you using the spasmic method for those clips? I can do it and its kind of a joke cause if you look at my second clip, I multi pick a ***load cause my fretting hand hasn't caught up to that speed and I don't think it will. Unless I can do it with my wrist it really isnt real to me. I can actually go to different strings while doing it. Also, the timing could probably be uneven if you really calculate that type of thing. I'll leave this to willjay.
Out of curiosity, what would my spasmic trem clock?
There you go! You see guys, using `spasmic arm vibrations` to tremelo pick (cos that`s what it is really) over 20 notes per second is not that uncommon after all, we could all probably do that with a little bit of practice. Though i`m still yet to see anyone pick over 19 nps using `controlled, accurate, note for note` picking. I`m actually starting to think that may never happen, simply because way too many people these days are looking for `short cuts` when trying to achieve picking speed, which normally leads in the direction of `spasmic arm vibrations` rather than controlled movement with the left and right hand perfectly synchronised, which can only be `earned` through years of slow, disciplined practice.
I did, for a short time, think that Theodore Ziras had come close to matching Shawn Lane`s `controlled` picking speed, from a couple of videos he posted on his site, but i knew something just didn`t look right about them. His picking hand just didn`t look like it was moving as quick as the speed of the notes. I suspected that he was economy picking each `crossover` to the next string, and that would mean a lot less `up/down` picking motions of the wrist are required, which obviosly is not actual `alternate picking`!
Anyway, i slowed down and studied a couple of his fast picking videos to see if i was right, and that did confirm my belief that he was actually economy picking these 2 excercises, even though he claims to be `alternate` picking them, and even though to trick us he actually does `alternate` pick them at the slower speed, then economy picks them at the faster speed, how sly is that?
See for yourself :
Theodore Ziras `Sextuplets` picking excercise (up to 18 nps) :
There you go. There are 2 things i can see in those videos. There aren`t as many `up/down` picking motions as there are actual notes, and he is doing 2 up or down strokes in a row (which is really just 1 big up/down stroke) when it comes to crossing from one string to the next (in other words, economy picking). Like i`ve said before, i have nothing against economy picking in a musical sense, but i don`t think it`s fair to compair them both when compairing for a physical acievement of speed (as shallow as it may be ;D).
When I saw your NPS project and saw that Theodore Ziras was picking 18 nps, I thought, "Wow, here's the picking heir to Shawn Lane!" I have always believed that Theodore Ziras is slightly above the rest of the class (of the next generation), technique wise! ......... And hmmmmm........ he actually used economy picking... to achieve 18.....hmmmm.......
Hey Willjay,
Is this economy-picking?..... During alt. picking, when I skip/jump strings with my elbow and upon reaching the string, I start-pick it with my elbow movement(or a mix of both elbow+wrist movement)....
When I saw your NPS project and saw that Theodore Ziras was picking 18 nps, I thought, "Wow, here's the picking heir to Shawn Lane!" I have always believed that Theodore Ziras is slightly above the rest of the class (of the next generation), technique wise! ......... And hmmmmm........ he actually used economy picking... to achieve 18.....hmmmm.......
Hey Willjay,
Is this economy-picking?..... During alt. picking, when I skip/jump strings with my elbow and upon reaching the string, I start-pick it with my elbow movement(or a mix of both elbow+wrist movement)....
`Economy` picking has nothing to do with whether you`re using your wrist, or elbow. Economy picking is when you do 2 pick strokes (well, actually 1 big stroke) in the `same direction` to cross from one string to another. You have to make sure you are picking a certain number of notes on a string (for example, check if it is an odd or even number of notes you are picking on 1 string) so that when you come to the point of changing strings, your pickstroke has to be in the right direction to `economy pick` the crossover in 1 big pick stroke.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than me? ;D
I think that was a good explanation Willie But to put it really simply - economy picking is like a mini-sweep over 2 strings during what is otherwise an alternate picking run. You alt pick when it's on the same string, then sweep across when you're changing strings.
Post by Angel Martin on Feb 6, 2006 18:41:24 GMT -6
With those spamsic trems, think about it. Its worthless for going to different strings, cause you'd have to do a wider spasm ACCURATELY to switch with a similar speed, and even then its not going to be even in timing. Using your wrist or your controlled style is where you are getting something meaningful. I could see those spasmic trems being used for just trems themselves or multi picking individual notes. Ultimately its just for egotistical purposes.
willjay i have a question. yngwie can pick at the same speed than impelliteri? i have one of his videos "speed soloing" and he play really fast i think even faster than theodore ziras is the most insane thing that ive ever seen.
-and you did a great job, more than 300 clips wow.
Post by sweepstakes17 on Feb 7, 2006 2:08:23 GMT -6
hey Willjay soz to be picky, ur most likely gonna hate me for this but Uv only slowed down the recordings of guitarists. Heres my dilema, these guitarists dont play their top speeds on recordings. For example you clocked Steve Vai at 13nps, but i saw him in concert and i can guarantee he plays faster then that. the guitarists hu i think did record their top speeds are shawn lane and Yngwie Malmsteen. the rest most likely wouldve only used solos that will fit the music. Cause in all seriousness does playing above 20 notes a second sound bettr then 15nps, not really Vai and Satriani proves that by not playing at maximum speed, Michael Angelo plays quick in sum of his solos for freight train, time travellar etc but to me they dont sound as good as Kirk Hammets Solo from Ride the lightning.
one question, is the reason y u didnt clock satriani because he mostly does lagatos, tapping etc. cheers, ill accpet all death threats and abusiveness lol.
With those spamsic trems, think about it. Its worthless for going to different strings, cause you'd have to do a wider spasm ACCURATELY to switch with a similar speed, and even then its not going to be even in timing. Using your wrist or your controlled style is where you are getting something meaningful. I could see those spasmic trems being used for just trems themselves or multi picking individual notes. Ultimately its just for egotistical purposes.
Yeah, well said!
"cause you'd have to do a wider spasm ACCURATELY " ;D ;D ;D
willjay i have a question. yngwie can pick at the same speed than impelliteri? i have one of his videos "speed soloing" and he play really fast i think even faster than theodore ziras is the most insane thing that ive ever seen.
-and you did a great job, more than 300 clips wow.
Yeah, i have that video, and he is picking those runs at a speed of 17 nps in that video, but the only reason i know that is because he was playing in groups of 6 at 170 bpm. HOWEVER, i spent many hours going through the whole intro to his REH video, slowing down and checking 1 second at a time to check his speed/accuracy using the `slow down` method, and in all that time i spent, i couldn`t find a single 1 second clip from it that was accurate enough to count the actual notes. His picking in that video was so unbelievably innacurate and messy, though he can pick quite fast and accurate when he slows it down a bit.
The fastest i`ve ever heard/clocked him picking `accurately`, where he actually picks every note, in time with his fingering hand, is 16 notes per second. When he tries to push it up to 17 nps (as in his early recordings, and his REH video) it no longer becomes accurate. Like i said, the only reason i knew he was `playing` at 17 nps on the video is because i clocked the speed he was `fingering the notes` to the metronome.
hey Willjay soz to be picky, ur most likely gonna hate me for this but Uv only slowed down the recordings of guitarists. Heres my dilema, these guitarists dont play their top speeds on recordings. For example you clocked Steve Vai at 13nps, but i saw him in concert and i can guarantee he plays faster then that. the guitarists hu i think did record their top speeds are shawn lane and Yngwie Malmsteen. the rest most likely wouldve only used solos that will fit the music. Cause in all seriousness does playing above 20 notes a second sound bettr then 15nps, not really Vai and Satriani proves that by not playing at maximum speed, Michael Angelo plays quick in sum of his solos for freight train, time travellar etc but to me they dont sound as good as Kirk Hammets Solo from Ride the lightning.
Actually, i have to kinda dissagree. One of Steve Vai`s `fast picking clips` from my `list` (at 13nps, which is the fastest i`ve ever clocked his alt picking, both from studio AND live recordings) was from an unnacompanied guitar solo he played live with Whitesnake. So because he was playing his guitar solo totally unnacompanied at that point you can`t say "he was playing to the speed of the music", and remember, this was back in the `show off` 80's, so really he picked this fast run for `effect` and (lets be honest) to show off, so if that`s the case why would he choose to slow it down? Even then his alt picking still maxed out at 13 nps, though he does only alt pick as fast as he can accurate, which i respect.
If you can find ANY recording of Steve `strictly alt picking` any quicker than that (or his other clips in my list) then let me know which recording and i`ll check it out and clock it.
sweepstakes17 said:
one question, is the reason y u didnt clock satriani because he mostly does lagatos, tapping etc. cheers, ill accpet all death threats and abusiveness lol.
No, i missed out Joe Satriani because this was a list of fast alternate picking, and Joe is not really an accomplished alt picker, in fact he has said many times before he doesn`t even like alt picking.
All i asked a while back was if you could just possibly submit a better quality clip, and without any delay or echo that you normally use. As you may have seen `Odracir` submitted a tremelo picking clip that was around 27-28 nps, but it was a good quality video, and he even had a clock ticking away next to him to prove the video wasn`t sped up, so that was easy to check.
Post by sweepstakes17 on Feb 8, 2006 4:50:52 GMT -6
Willjay i take my hat off to u, i herd the full clip and when i herd Vai live he did sound like he played at rufly the same speed as the clip so i guess ur right. One more thing, im recording in 6-8 weeks would it be possible if i sent da clip to u and u could count it for me if u got time, iv recorded sum speed stuff at skool and slowed it down, the most i hit was 18Nps (my previous statement bout 20 is obviously wrong) alt. picking but i dont think the last two notes had the clarity of the previous ones, they were still distinguishable but not as much as the previous ones. the reason i wont send this one is Cause of the sound quality and id have to send it from skool (which im not allowed) so ill just record the same thing when i record wit my guitar teachers band. Cheers. PS ur project has put alot of things in perspective and i think u may be right that no one will ever hit above 20 doin strict alt. picking. unless theyr a machine.
I don't know if it's really accurate, but to me it sounds faster than the 17 unacurate nps you have clocked by him (but you didn't post on your list). It sounds much more at the level of that "Shredmikel" clip from Petrucci forum you posted. I don't know, as i said before, if it is really accurate playing, but wow, the way he moves his fingers it's pretty impressive.
`Economy` picking has nothing to do with whether you`re using your wrist, or elbow. Economy picking is when you do 2 pick strokes (well, actually 1 big stroke) in the `same direction` to cross from one string to another. You have to make sure you are picking a certain number of notes on a string (for example, check if it is an odd or even number of notes you are picking on 1 string) so that when you come to the point of changing strings, your pickstroke has to be in the right direction to `economy pick` the crossover in 1 big pick stroke.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than me? ;D
Willjay,
Yes, I know what economy/sweep picking is. What I wanted to know was, am I still doing alternate picking when I do string-skipping that way?
If you're still doing up-down-up-down while string skipping it's still alternate picking. If not, then it isn't
Are you saying when I'm still strictly following the up-down-up-down sequence, such as when I end with a downstroke(or upstroke) on the current string and start with a upstroke(or downstroke) on the successive string (whether I'm string-skipping upwards or downwards), then I'm still alt. picking?
;D
......... I'm again is Inspired by him! 
