Well Ziras shouldn't be put in the same bracket as Lane, Duane, McLaughlin or Batio tbh but i know you wasn't you were just listing them.
I still like Duane & Mike over the others alive BUT they are electric players mainly whereas John & Al are acustic guitarists mainly so it's really difficult to compare. Would Duane be as good as Al is on acoustic & vice versa??? It's hard to tell, but as long as there's a top bracket of players then that's cool since they are all undoubtably great players & we'd all agree there's a huge difference between these and the lesser players technically.
Post by GibsonLesPaul on Sept 26, 2006 14:09:54 GMT -6
Even shawn lane is my favourite guitarist technically , i have to say that he isnt a strict alternate picker as well . For example on power licks on his 4 - 5 descending lick he says it is a strict alternate picking lick . However he is using economy picking as well (guthrie govan realised that and when he transcribed this lick he trascribed with economy picking) .Plus if someone can alternate pick faster than someone else it doesnt mean he plays most difficult stuff than the other one . Eg . gambale plays stuff with economy picking that MAB could ever play IMO and not to mention holdswarths legato skills . I like picking technic but i dont see why not use eg. economy picking on certain patterns that it is convienient since it sounds exactly the same with alternate on the distorted electric(if it is done right)
He likes the sound of economy more than alt picking cos it's a bit smoother instead of click, click, click, click etc.
I think if you get to a level where you can play any technique then you can choose which to play it with.
Mike could easily play Gambale's stuff. He sweeps @ 23.5nps very cleanly and this is the same principle as economy picking.
Lane was a great legato player. He didn't sweep but could. He wouldn't do the shred version of sweeps like say a Becker, Yngwie, Stump, Cooley style of shapes. He'd probably mix it in with slides, legato & have more of a saxophone quality to it which is perfect for jazz.
I'm an alt picker primarily for runs. I have the philosophy to alt pick anything i can then the stuff which is too fast- economy pick. At the moment i ***, but i mean in a few years' time. Kinda like the Michael Romeo way.
Post by GibsonLesPaul on Sept 26, 2006 16:53:29 GMT -6
i think that economy picking is very falsly though to be easy . It is very hard to do it really stable and to hit every note properly . I didnt know what economy picking was before i got into gambale . Alternate was the natural thing for me to do ( up down up down etc. ) and it took me along time to learn to economy pick (i did that cause gambale said you save like 33.3% of your right hand movement and it sounded reasonable . Now i try to mix both technics depending on the pattern (there are patterns that cannot be played with economy picking like the first shred part on no boundaries)
I agree that MAB can sweep pick faster on regular major minor arpegios but he cant touch gambale;s weird sweeps with rythmic changes on the same arpegio and stuff Here's an example(22 secs clip) of gambale's exceptional use of economy (and sweep) picking .It is not that fast(not many nps) but it is TOO hard to recreate Watch how he picks every single note , if he didnt it wouldnt have been that difficult
Emmmm, i actually wasn't that impressed tbh. Stump, Bellas & Romeo can all economy pick as smooth & effortless as that but twice as fast.
I doubt Mike will find too much trouble doing that tbh whereas Gambale could never play Mike's ***.
Cooley has easily got Gambale beat on sweeps too. If you don't have his album, check it out. If i wasn't so technologically deficient i'd post a clip bu trust me, he is bad ass & it's not straight forward shapes either.
Also, Shane Gibson is so bad ass too. Click on Emo Village Pillage: www.guitar9.com/undiscov56f.html. 22nps perfectly clean & continuous sweeping. He doesnt miss the beat and there's no way Gambale could do that.
Still, gotta give props to the first guy who is Gambale. Cooley himself is a huge fan of his so no doubt he picked up the technique from him.
Post by GibsonLesPaul on Sept 26, 2006 18:42:26 GMT -6
You have really stuck on the idea that the fastest is always the most difficult . Well thats not true . For example there alot of players who play legato alot faster than holdswarth and garsed but holds and garsed's stuff is almost always more difficult due to the patterns they use and note choice . The note choice is a very important factor . I dont doubt that these guys can economy pick faster than gambale but gambales patterns are more difficult . You ll get that in time beleive me(I dont say that gambale can play those guy's stuff but this goes both ways. By saying more difficult i mean that for an other guitarist who practises both is harder to play gambales stuff.) .Shawn Lane on The Way It Has To Be plays 16 nps(i think), picking different amount of notes per string . Starts with 3 notes per string then moves to 2 then to 4 , 5 and mixes them up . This is practically IMPOSSIBLE to play and ALOT more difficult than regular 3 note per string minor shred on 18 or even 19 nps alternate picking. Your hands after alot of hours practising 3 npstring pattterns fly on the fretboard . If you try to mix this 3 npstring with 4 and 2 you ll crash Same with that gambale video , u can see him mix up all this stuff and pick everything without missing a note(of course shawn lanes example is much more diffcult) As for cooley , i absolutely hate him . I have his album and not only he is a terrible musician , i dont even like him technically that much . He is probably faster than anybody when legatoing or sweeping but he is S L O P P Y . On his videos when he sweeps you only hear the first and the last note cleanly . All the other is just BLLBLLBBL . When he picks he plays faster than he actually can and he hands are unsyncronised . On his crazy legatos sometimes(if not often) he gets out of tune ( slow down his clips and see yourself, videos always , not studio stuff - never beleive what you listen on studio albums) . His video lesson on August's Guitar technics is a perfect proof of what i am trying to tell (especial on the alt picking section the pentatonic lick , he hands are unsycronised and the left hand plays something that has mothing to do with the lick transcribed )
Post by (Insert User Name Here) on Sept 26, 2006 18:50:28 GMT -6
Here are some speeds i've clocked for people using `Spasmic Arm Vibration" picking :
- Odracir (Michael Angelo forum) - 27 - 28 nps (Spasmic arm vibration picking on 1 note) - Shredmikael (John Petrucci forum) - 20 nps (Spasmic arm vibration "tremelo" picking; is 16 years old) - Tiago Della Vega - 18 - 20 nps (picks up to this speed with spasmic arm vibrations, left and right hands never match up, and often fingers more notes than he picks) - Francesco Fareri - 18 nps (...of uncoordinated, inaccurate, arm vibration picking on 1 string) - Rusty Cooley - 16.5 - 17 nps (up to this speed when using the vibrating arm picking method, which loses some accuracy)
Hope this helps a bit!
You guys are free to copy/paste my list around..... just don't don't forget to include the source.
I've still yet to finish clocking HWS, i know.. i'm slow.... if i find any faster speeds on HWS, i'll update my list!
what about me? dont you remember? i can pick as fast as the speed of light!
He ***s up a couple of times on the GT cd-rom. Is it me or does he look like he just got out of bed a minute before doing that vid?? lol.
I don't think Cooley is a terrible musician. He may not be everybody's cup of tea but stuff like War of the Angels shows he can write great stuff. Sometimes he overdoes the speed but generally 15-16nps alt picking he is quite clean. It's hard to tell with that heavily distorted tone but i don't think he is as bad as you think.
That may be the thing i like most about Lane btw- his rhythmic displacement licks. Alot of his stuff which is in 4/4 time sounds insanely odd tempo when it aint. Doing groupings of 4 notes then 3 then 4 then 4 then 7 etc, it's mental & although stuff like that is much harder than doing a recurring 3nps lick, 16nps is still ***ing fast!!!! Lol.
Also i think people are a bit TOO carried away with finding faults in players when they slow their stuff down. There is absolutely nothing that says Bach, Paganini, Chopin etc didn't have flaws if you recorded them playing their stuff & put it through a Tascam. As long as it has an effect in full speed & doesn't make my ears bleed like some of Schauss or Fareri's alt picking licks then it's cool.
The cleanest players sound clean at high speeds anyways- Lane, McLaughlin, Duane, Batio etc & i don't think Cooley is ultra sloppy in any technique. The thing you have to take into account is the situation. On videos Cooley may be a bit sloppy, but you don't know the circumstances behind that. He has 3 kids (like Duane) and 1 of them may be taken ill etc. I'm always suspect when a player looks rough in a vid like Cooley on his GT vid.
The "BLLBLLBBL" may be down to the fact he can sweep around 25nps. If you key a lick into Guitar pro or Power Tab, you wont hear the individual notes.
I don't think he is THAT sloppy here: . It's only when he switches to his elbow picking that he loses accuracy. His sweeps i like & i don't have a slow downer but i like them in full speed.
How about that Gibson mp3? He is very clean & clear @ 22nps.
I think Rusty is a lot better than most of the shredders you see nowadays.
It is true that he overstrains, and thereby gives it a bit of a stifling sound. But if he just relaxed a bit, and played a little bit more smoothly, he could be on par with Yngwie Malmsteen - which is quite an achievement IMO
What I am pretty much hating lately, is the prospect of keeping your fingers too close to the fretboard while you're shredding. Ziras is the king of doing this.................... So is MAB, but at least he keeps it relatively clean. It's easier to play faster this way since your fingers have to travel less distance, although it really sounds muffled. Example:
Last Edit: Sept 27, 2006 2:18:15 GMT -6 by lumbogue
Post by GibsonLesPaul on Sept 27, 2006 5:44:00 GMT -6
It is not that he sweeps 25 nps the blllblblbl . Even his slower sweeps are kinda messy . On the other hand you can hear eg. MAB sweeping 20 nps and sound crystal clean , with alot less distorted tone . I didnt intend to say that rusty is too sloppy . He is probably cleaner than most regular shreders on regular shredding speed (lol) . But he always tries to do more than he can , relying heavily on his (awful IMO) heavily distorted tone . I never liked rusty but my real disslike started when i heard his awful AWFUL A W F U L version of lane's epilogue for lisa . I know that on a tribute album u dont suppose to play the songs exactly the same , but to add your personality on the track , but this didnt prevent it from being terrible
At a regular shred speed & with a less distorted tone Rusty is pretty clean but he does tend to overdo it a bit in order to fit a couple more notes in.
Mike is great at sweeping he is probably the cleanest over 18nps. Players like Becker who people think is so fast and clean, he is very clean but stuff like Altitudes is only 11nps & Perpetual Burn 16nps. I know he uses great shapes & i myself am trying (very badly) to learn Altitudes sweep part cleanly & it's not just straight up & down minor shapes. I haven't stuck a metronome on Serrana so i dunno the speed to hand but that's very clean & cool too.
But Cooley is subconsciously competing with these players. You look at his influences & they are all great sweepers apart from Holdsworth & Lane who rarely if ever swept.
5nps is alot of difference to sound, but he doen't need to be THAT fast. At 20nps & with a slicker tone he'd sound better but i m nowhere near the player he is so i can't say anthing.
Shane Gibson is the best sweeper next to Batio for speed & clarity purposes plus i like how it sounds.
George Bellas is great too although nowhere near as fast.
Post by GibsonLesPaul on Sept 27, 2006 9:05:44 GMT -6
I agree with the Jason becker thing . He doesnt sweep all that fast but he uses difficult shapes . Altitudes is slow(11.6 i think) , slower than no boundaries arepgios (14nps) but i think it is harder to recreate or at least as hard as no boundaries arps(to be played perfectly clean). Serana i think it is on 136 bpm
Yeah Altitudes is between 110 & 115bpm i think. Nearer 115bpm probably so it's between 11-12nps. The shapes make that difficult cos i'm sure most on here could do 3 string sweeps but the constant nuances then the 5-string sweeps make it VERY hard!!!!! I haven't heard anyone pull it off properly. You tube is the best for *** attempts. Ha ha.
Also, the tabs for it vary so unless you send it to a transcriber with perfect pitch then you're bound to get 1 not wrong.
No Boundaries is pretty basic sweeping i would assume although it sounds great & it doesn't need to be fast but Mike also sweeps 5-String with taps 7's per beat @ 200bpm in that song when the tempo fastens which is 23.333nps.
Serrana again is very cool
Suspension by Fareri is 16.5nps i think & i like it musically although it'd sound a whole lot better on the neck pickup & CLEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol.
Studio albums are not very good devices to tell a player's capacity. They are remastered and stuff. Like Fareri, Mills. their stuff sounds half decent on their album. But when you see them play live, they are quite grotesque.
Also seeing a player play has a lot of advantages, since sound can be deceiving.
Hey Willjay... just wanted to ask if you'd check out the solo from Splendido Sundance (DiMeola). It's got an amazing acoustic run... and I've been wondering for some time how fast it's being played. I don't want to bet that it's faster than his live average... because apparantly my ear is biased (I would have thought surely he was faster than McLaughlin even if his lines were less complex). Anyway... hope you have a chance to check it out. I'd sure appreciate the analysis.