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Post by ixenakis on Aug 2, 2009 8:05:03 GMT -6
Don't you find it strange that you are getting so angry over my initial post that simply called your statement silly? You seem rather insecure, because your tone has been getting more and more desperate. If you just consider for a second the context of your initial statement and how it read, and then realize that your follow up name dropping of bill evans and terms like polytonality and polychords, etc... was more or less the exact SAME example as the 15/8 (not what indicates a good musician either), I think once you take those things into account you will see where I am coming from. The fact that you would go as far to call my initial statement an allegation (are you serious???) shows that if anyone is extremely stressed out over this situation, that would be you. Let me put it to you this way, applying concepts which you deem "advanced" is not in itself something that I would define as being "the reason" someone is a good musician or not. It certainly can be the case, that a good, or great musician is using extremely advanced concepts... and yes, Bill Evans is a great musician. But, you implied in your original post that playing over 15/8 might give someone trouble and thus make them "less of a musician", then corrected yourself by name dropping evans and compositional tools not only totally irrelevant to this discussion, but also that were exactly similar examples of the thing I had just commented about. You simply changed 15/8 for polychords... still not what makes a great musician. Concepts are just concepts, nothing more, any fool can apply concepts they learn from a book into practice. It will sound bad and artificial more than likely, and THAT is where in my opinion , you have to search for someone's musicianship... what is it that they are doing with the tools they are using. How create is there application of those tools? Etc. Here I am not trying to reject the concepts themselves, don't get me wrong, they are extremely important. The point is to realize that the concept themselves won't be making great music, there is still a step after, which the great players/composers have... imagination in their application. After you are done being angry, consider the point of my post, and maybe you will come to agree with some of it. p.s- I did not know about Tatum being called artum, and so, forgive my incorrect correction. I have no problem in apologizing for a mistake. Then be careful not to make such emphatically stupid statements... all will be well when that happens I suppose. Re-read your original statement and tell me it isn't silly? ps- thats ART tatum, or arthur...not artum... Something for your education ixenakis: That's how Fats Waller called him, Artum Tatum. Apart from your imbecile allegations: Haven't talked about your balls' pressure. A different cause of tendinitis now ?
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Post by GibsonLesPaul on Aug 2, 2009 8:22:43 GMT -6
I think time is the only thing that can tell who is really a great musician(at least out of those who get some mainstream attention).There so many different people who can be considered great ranging from Clasical composers to Coltrane to Hendrix to bands like sex pistols(Even if personally i heavily dislike punk).I beleive it is way above us to really ague over it.I like complex improvisational music and yeah i enjoey listening someone improvising over 15/8 but this doesnt necescecerily make him a "good" improvisor,but rather an able improvisor as ixenakis said.BB king and John mclaughlin are both great as time has proven and totally different.The fact that J mac is a much more able soloist than BB king doesnt make him better(it does for me but thats something completely different).ANd of course in the end what is important is not what is great,but what is great to you.Anyway i think that scyll with his post just wanted to empahise that Cooley,despite being sloppy and writting poor music is also a poor impoviser.I dont think u have to argue over it.
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Post by ixenakis on Aug 3, 2009 15:27:24 GMT -6
I agree with more or less everything stated here, seems like I jumped on you before I had all the information... though, I would not go as far as to say dimeola is a poor musician. Regardless, enough of arguing from my end. I cited Bill Evans as an example of someone who was not only inventive but whose music touches something inside. The combination of both makes him great imho. The introduction of mere concepts, however advanced they are, is meaningless without context and receptivity. The assessment of greatness is inherently subjective and my very subjective point of view is that Cooley is neither great nor a top-notch player. His licks are not easy, but when playing at top speed he's often sloppy (this includes an unintentional switch from alternate to economy picking). About improvising over odd signatures: Al di Meola can do this without any doubt, nevertheless I don't consider him a great musician.
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scyll
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Post by scyll on Aug 4, 2009 11:02:27 GMT -6
Di Meola is definitely not a poor musician. His best years are (long) gone, however. Can't understand why he played with such a dreadful tone during the RTF reunion tour.
For McLaughlin, nowadays I find his compositions much more interesting than his own playing. His soloing has become a little predictable, too quickly following well known patterns. He does release quality albums, Five Peace Band is great (though he's the one who is shining least imho). Interestingly, when I saw FPB and they played John's tune New Blues, Old Bruise one could well observe how demanding it was for these world class musicians.
On Cooley's homepage he is called an "extreme shredder". An accurate statement ?
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Post by GibsonLesPaul on Aug 4, 2009 11:28:30 GMT -6
Di Meola is definitely not a poor musician. His best years are (long) gone, however. Can't understand why he played with such a dreadful tone during the RTF reunion tour. For McLaughlin, nowadays I find his compositions much more interesting than his own playing. His soloing has become a little predictable, too quickly following well known patterns. He does release quality albums, Five Peace Band is great (though he's the one who is shining least imho). Interestingly, when I saw FPB and they played John's tune New Blues, Old Bruise one could well observe how demanding it was for these world class musicians. On Cooley's homepage he is called an "extreme shredder". An accurate statement ? I like Johns electric playing now more than ever.What i hate is the horrible tone with his Godin.This guitar is not for him.U can tell that it doesnt fit him well.The hollows and the semi hollows fitted him much better as did the les paul.I d love to listen him playuing acoustic again.In the 2003 thieves and poets he did for me his best acoustic playing ever(at least in the studio) As for the cooley video,i forgot how untasteful a guitar solo ccan be.I prefer to listen the first white stripes album over this any time
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scyll
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Post by scyll on Aug 4, 2009 11:53:29 GMT -6
Di Meola is definitely not a poor musician. His best years are (long) gone, however. Can't understand why he played with such a dreadful tone during the RTF reunion tour. For McLaughlin, nowadays I find his compositions much more interesting than his own playing. His soloing has become a little predictable, too quickly following well known patterns. He does release quality albums, Five Peace Band is great (though he's the one who is shining least imho). Interestingly, when I saw FPB and they played John's tune New Blues, Old Bruise one could well observe how demanding it was for these world class musicians. On Cooley's homepage he is called an "extreme shredder". An accurate statement ? I like Johns electric playing now more than ever.What i hate is the horrible tone with his Godin.This guitar is not for him.U can tell that it doesnt fit him well.The hollows and the semi hollows fitted him much better as did the les paul.I d love to listen him playuing acoustic again.In the 2003 thieves and poets he did for me his best acoustic playing ever(at least in the studio) As for the cooley video,i forgot how untasteful a guitar solo ccan be.I prefer to listen the first white stripes album over this any time I also don't like that Godin tone, it's a shame he hasn't touched an acoustic for years. Perhaps you'll appreciate this vid more (and the insanity taking place at 5:55 - 6:20 and 7:10 - 7:26)
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Post by GibsonLesPaul on Aug 4, 2009 12:45:18 GMT -6
I like Johns electric playing now more than ever.What i hate is the horrible tone with his Godin.This guitar is not for him.U can tell that it doesnt fit him well.The hollows and the semi hollows fitted him much better as did the les paul.I d love to listen him playuing acoustic again.In the 2003 thieves and poets he did for me his best acoustic playing ever(at least in the studio) As for the cooley video,i forgot how untasteful a guitar solo ccan be.I prefer to listen the first white stripes album over this any time I also don't like that Godin tone, it's a shame he hasn't touched an acoustic for years. Perhaps you'll appreciate this vid more (and the insanity taking place at 5:55 - 6:20 and 7:10 - 7:26) Yeah.Paco was KILLING those days.I prefer Johns acoustic playing latter in the 80's.Especially 88.He got cleaner faster and his tone with the Wechter guitar improved ALOT.
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Post by S-H on Aug 14, 2009 10:26:55 GMT -6
I can only speak for myself, but I am 100% not jealous of Rusty Cooley.
He is, IMO, the minimum level any serious player should be after 7+ years of practice and for any half-serious player, there is really little to be jealous of.
His technique (which is the only thing he is known for) isn't exactly great (if he were to have near mechanical technique then I would say he is at least a good player of the instrument).
Musically, he has almost no musical nuance about him- phrasing is poor, he has no dynamic ability, articulation skills etc.
There are plenty of metal and shred players who would hand Cooley his ass on a plate- MAB, Thordendal, Artusato, Romeo, Petrucci, Gilbert, V.Moore, Simon, Loureiro, Impellitteri to name a few.
All of those in terms of technique ONLY are still a couple of levels above Cooley.
I've nothing against the guy, but he is seriously over-rated and it's all down to his intentional shock and awe way of playing. All style, no substance.
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Aug 14, 2009 17:12:08 GMT -6
He's pretty similar to Batio, to my ears anyway.
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scyll
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Post by scyll on Aug 21, 2009 8:16:37 GMT -6
I'm not into Cooley's music either but I'm not into most shredder's music so I must judge him for his technical ability and you guys are very critical about Cooley as he is a monster badass..I think I can play at 17 nps but I must admit Rusty is just better.. Are you guys sure that there isn't a little jealousy here - no offense intended at all... Jealous of a shredder with nil musicianship ? I'd be jealous if his articulation and phrasing were phenomenal. All flash, no flesh.
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Aug 21, 2009 10:21:34 GMT -6
We were all a bit hard on francesco farreri too, but have you heard him play now, he really pulled his finger out, good on him, lets hope rusty will be the one from 2-3 years ago when he wasnt picking faster than he could fret Fareri has improved, amazingly enough.
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Sept 22, 2009 11:17:04 GMT -6
You could always give this one a go:
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Post by Willjay on Sept 22, 2009 11:52:11 GMT -6
You could always give this one a go: That's an easy one to clock, because the pattern is in groups of 6.... so all you need to do is match it to a metronome (unfortunately i don't have a battery for mine).
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Post by Willjay on Sept 22, 2009 11:53:16 GMT -6
We were all a bit hard on francesco farreri too, but have you heard him play now, he really pulled his finger out, good on him, lets hope rusty will be the one from 2-3 years ago when he wasnt picking faster than he could fret Fareri has improved, amazingly enough. Has he reeeeaally??? I didn't get the memo. .... Is there any audio evidence of that?
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Sept 22, 2009 11:58:50 GMT -6
As for my clip, I would be more confident in your precise clockings than just guessing using a metronome.
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Post by sikanex on Sept 22, 2009 15:52:39 GMT -6
His vibrato and time still aren't very good, but, there has been some improvement... I think he should work on just his touch and vibrato, bends for an entire year. His playing would go a long way very quickly. I just don't think he sees that it needs to be done, so, maybe that is the biggest of all problems. As for my clip, I would be more confident in your precise clockings than just guessing using a metronome.
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Post by S-H on Sept 22, 2009 16:42:55 GMT -6
@ Yngtchie- I'll stick a met on it tomorrow for a rough figure. Your picking is accurate so it will be there or there about. BTW- Have you seen the Ruokangas Strat style guitar fitted with TT Frets? www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=2&sgo=4I found their site via Mattias Eklundh's. Here's the FAQ: www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=4&sgo=0#A3~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ @ Willie- Lol, there have been a few technical improvements (mechanics, not the musical elements of technique), but like otreboR said, his allround intonation is still very poor and he is pretty clueless. I don't think that will ever change unless he is taken under the wing of Scott Henderson or someone. It's a shame cos he's 1 of the nicest blokes you'll talk with (albeit over the internet) so I want him to "get it" but he still hasn't.
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Sept 22, 2009 16:50:24 GMT -6
Yeah, they look really cool, I'd love to try one of those. And thanks, I'll await your fascinating discoveries tomorrow.
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Post by S-H on Sept 24, 2009 11:29:55 GMT -6
I have a "cheap and chearful" metronome and I'm finding it difficult to start the beat on the first picked note, but it's around 12.5nps. 123bpm on my met, though like watches they can differ. Just say 12.5nps and you'll be fine.
Very Stump-esque gradually getting faster til at full speed and then repeating the pattern. Me likey. Lol
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Sept 24, 2009 12:14:01 GMT -6
Malmsteen-esque, actually. Inspired by this performance:
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Post by sikanex on Sept 24, 2009 15:52:02 GMT -6
I think the idea of a half note is funny... would it not always be rounded UP? I mean, its attacks no? 12.5 attacks is impossible, it becomes 13 attacks, the last of which is not the exact length as the rest... It's one of the things I don't like about the entire notion of notes per second... I think its best to stick to musical parameters to determine something like this... bpm's, etc... unless you want to justify a "half" attack. I have a "cheap and chearful" metronome and I'm finding it difficult to start the beat on the first picked note, but it's around 12.5nps. 123bpm on my met, though like watches they can differ. Just say 12.5nps and you'll be fine. Very Stump-esque gradually getting faster til at full speed and then repeating the pattern. Me likey. Lol
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Post by S-H on Sept 24, 2009 16:54:20 GMT -6
Malmsteen-esque, actually. Same thing. ;D Yeah I've seen that vid before, quality stuff. Yngwie was the nuts in the 80's & early 90's but I hardly listen to his new stuff tbph. It sounds as like he's going through the motions.
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Post by S-H on Sept 24, 2009 17:03:05 GMT -6
I think the idea of a half note is funny... would it not always be rounded UP? I mean, its attacks no? 12.5 attacks is impossible, it becomes 13 attacks, the last of which is not the exact length as the rest... It's one of the things I don't like about the entire notion of notes per second... I think its best to stick to musical parameters to determine something like this... bpm's, etc... unless you want to justify a "half" attack. I suppose you could say 25 notes every 2 seconds and lengthen the number of seconds til the number of nps is a whole 1. Half a note per second doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, and in fact nps doesn't full stop. But Willie's whole idea was born out of people bull***ting on forums (this guy plays #nps) and everyone no matter how pig-headed or moronic can understand 13nps (13 FULL notes that is) is faster, albeit only slightly, than 12.5nps and there's proof. I wouldn't read more into than that. If we're being 100% fair, every guitarist would have to play the same lick cleanly and I know for a fact a LOT of the players in Willie's project would struggle to hit full speed playing a Lane lick from his live improvs or "The Tri-Tone Fascination".
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scyll
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Post by scyll on Sept 29, 2009 0:06:52 GMT -6
@ Willie- Lol, there have been a few technical improvements (mechanics, not the musical elements of technique), but like otreboR said, his allround intonation is still very poor and he is pretty clueless. I don't think that will ever change unless he is taken under the wing of Scott Henderson or someone. It's a shame cos he's 1 of the nicest blokes you'll talk with (albeit over the internet) so I want him to "get it" but he still hasn't. Fareri and musical elements of technique is a contradiction by itself. The vid is a decent contribution to the 'Most tasteless shred solo'-contest. His tone in particular is killing, in the worst sense.
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Post by Yngtchie Blacksteen on Oct 4, 2009 11:10:37 GMT -6
I'm curious.
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